Meeting called to order 8:30 April 5, 2004 Attendance: 0000111000000000000111110000 \ 4321210987654433211221109998 / Month 0001000011112021121101022002 \ 5892136814691740073628413996 / Day aaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaa*aa Steven Sharp aa-aaaapaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-a*aa Karen Pieper a-aaaaa-a----a--aa-aa--a-$aa Cliff Cummings -aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa=-a Shalom Bresticker -aaaaa--a-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*aa Stefen Boyd ---a------a--aaaaaaaaaaaa*aa Dennis Marsa --a-aaaaaaa-aaaaa-aaa-aaa$aa James Markevitch -------aaaa-aa-a-aaaaaaa-=-a Gordon Vreugdenhil --------aaa--aaa-aa-aaaaa$aa Anders Nordstrom ---------------------aaa-$a- Ted Elkind aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-a*a- Brad Pierce aaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaaa*a- Charles Dawson aaa-aaaaa-aa-a---aa-a-aa-$a- Mike McNamara aaaaaaa--aa-aaaaaaaaaa---*aa Stu Sutherland -a-aaaaa--a--------------*a- Tom Fitzpatrick -------------------------*aa Elliot Mednick ---a--a-a-------aa---------- Don Mills -------aaaa-----a----------- Jay Lawrence ----a-aa-------a------------ Mehdi Mohtashemi --a--a--aaaa--aa------------ Kurt Baty ----------a----------------- David Smith -aa--aaaa-a----------------- Dennis Brophy aaaaaaaaaa------------------ Francoise Martinolle ----aaaa-------------------- Drew Lynch --a---a--------------------- David Roberts -----a---------------------- Ennis Hawk aaa-a----------------------- Ronald Goodstein ----a----------------------- Keith Gover -aaa------------------------ Jason Woolf a attended p proxy - absent The chair directed everone's attention to http://www.verilog.com/IEEEVerilog.html where a link to the IEEE policy is prominent. Review of the minutes of the last ETF meeting (March 8, 2004). Ron moves that we accept the minutes of the meeting. Charles seconds. No opposed. No abstain. Passes. >From the email vote on the generate proposal: The generate proposal passed. Shalom had comments. Stu opposed on the basis of more discussion required. Steven moves that we ammend the passed generate proposal in the following way: In the new proposal: - In 12.4.1, Example 2, on the line assign bin[i] = ^gray[SIZE-1:i]; add a comment as follows: // i refers to the implicitly defined localparam whose value in each instance // of the generate block is the value of the genvar when it was elaborated. - On page 12 of the new text pdf (section 12.4.2), change the name of the gate from test.u1.x1, to test.u1.g1. Charles seconds. No opposed. No abstain. Passes. Shalom's comments for future discussion: 1) the concept of external name in 12.4.3 doesn't seem complete enough. If a declaration does not have a hierarchical name but instead just an implicit external name, is the external name the one to be used in a VCD dump? What about a pli by-name lookup? Does a $display with %m in an unnamed block produce the implicit name? I think that it would be valuable to explicitly define the interactions/requirements with respect to other aspects of the LRM. Committee concensus: VCD dump, $display with %m are ok. PLI name queries should be ok. SDF should be ok. References in the RTL is not ok because the names have the potential to change frequently with the structure of the design. 2) 13.1 clarifies (by implication) that a configuration cannot create a design root from a module that would not otherwise be a "top module". I disagree with this. If a self recursive model is *defined to be* a design root by a configuration, we should respect that. Forcing a user to create an additional level of hierarchy for the purpose of using a configuration does not make sense to me. The restriction on the *automatic determination* of top modules is absolutely necessary, but in the context of configurations we shouldn't try to second guess the designer. Committee concensus: If a configuration specifies a top-level module, that specification overrides the implicit top-level module defined by the default rules, even if that module is recursive. 3) 10.3.5 removes generated functions from the list of constant functions. I don't understand the rationale for this. Since the visibility rules and locality rules guarantee that a function would be elaborated before any possible use as a constant function, I don't see why this is restricted and parameter dependent functions are not. Committee concensus: May be possible to allow this at a future date. - Need to finish and add 12.8 Elaboration. Committee concensus: Jason had written a solution up, but Shalom felt it was too complicated, so we removed it from the current draft. - Defparam restrictions, two kinds, explanation too complex (Sharp, Feb 17; Shalom, Feb 1). How can user decide whether defparam is legal or not? Update the 1st para. in 12.2.1. Committee concensus: Defer until we understand Shalom's comments. - Add more examples Committee concensus: Defer until we understand Shalom's comments. - (Params in constant functions (Sharp, Feb 3)) Committee concensus: If generate and constant functions have an issue, so do paramters in constant functions. - xref in 10.3.5 should be to 12.8 after 12.8 is added. Committee concensus: If we add a 12.8, we'll need to add a cross reference. - Should there be attributes within genvar_expression? See its BNF. What about genvar's in an attribute? Also attributes on the genvar expression (i = i + 1;) Stu believes that any construct that exists past elaboration time should be accessible by the PLI. There is not agreement as to whether or not attributes should apply to constucts that do not survive elaboration. Stu's concerns: - We need to ensure that the handshake between the PLI and the ETF occur. Specifying exceptions, etc. Stu is concerned that the expectations have not been communicated. Steven's suggestion: State that generate scopes are scopes so any PLI access mmple_12_4_2_formatted.pdf Page 15: Add an example number... And update formatting according to Cliff's attached document: http://boydtechinc.com/etf/archive/att-2437/03_Example_12_4_3_formatted.pdf The comment about genblk3 is incorrect because genblk3 is named. Francoise will modify the example in 12_4_3 to have it meed to happen are: 1) The two typos Shalom had indicated that we passed this meeting. 2) Address Cliff's issues a) the first example in 12.4.1 b) update the example on page 12 with Cliff's update c) use Francoise's update to the example in 12.4.3 d) address "refer instance arrays" typo e) Add Steven's rewrite on page 19 f) Add Steven's rewrite on page 21 As soon as Karen gets an updated document, she will start an election to run a week. ------------------------------ Open Action Items: (11/18/02) generate proposal for 17, 113, 255. (12/1/03) 22: There is no concensus to a fix, so we will leave this issue alone until there is one. (12/1/03) 33: Mike MacNamera to make a proposal. (11/18/02) Steven and committee to return with an @* proposal for issues 82, 84 Group has agreement on some of the more contentious issues. (11/18/02) Evaluating TBD Errata. The tasks are: Shalom 170 formatting of bnf non-terminals (11/4/02) Steven will proposing a wording to fix 172. It will be a significant rewrite. Partially rewritten through the generate proposal. More work will remain after the generate proposal is ready. (11/18/02) 198, 254, 58, 318: Shalom (7/14/03) 204: James volunteered to drive He needs input on what the simulators do. There are some complex issues here dealing with port collapsing and inout. That is covered by issue 54. As to the exact issue in 204, how about adding examples indicating that examples 2, 3, 4 are illegal? James will do that. He has not written this up yet. Shalom suggested that this and 7 other errata be evalutated together. All of the issues are Brad's (filed by him?) He does not want to drive. James will develop a proposal for all of them including 204. 204, 227, 233, 234, 292, 332, 345, 452, 486(?). (2/10/03) Issue 237: SV-BC19-41, SV-BC19-42 Dave Roberts and Shalom to fix the proposal expanding the BNF and creating language to support it. Is waiting on Shalom to do some experiments and come up with a proposal based on the discussion of the 2/8/04 meeting. (7/14/03) 245: Shalom (7/14/03) 247: May be partially covered by generate proposal (10/06/03) 428: Brad and Shalom (3/8/04) 541: Shalom to check the proposal ------------------------------ The meeting adjourned a little after 10:30 Pacific time with Cliff's movement.